Agency Breakout Summit/2021: How WordPress is Enterprise Grade

As the world has accelerated to digital, many enterprise organizations have been forced to reimagine their digital experiences. Traditionally, large-scale businesses have defaulted to expensive, proprietary solutions, ultimately leading to slower time to market and a process that is costly when changes need to be made.

Previously ignored by the enterprise segment, WordPress is steadily becoming the solution that demands everyone’s attention. It’s taking market share from these proprietary solutions—because of its ability to deliver enterprise-grade solutions at scale. In the session below, WP Engine VP of Growth Joel Knight sits down with Kanopi Studios CEO Anne Stefanyk to find out how her agency leverages WordPress to meet the demands of, and deliver to, their enterprise clients.

WP Engine VP of Growth Joel Knight and Kanopi Studios CEO Anne Stefanyk discuss:

• Why WordPress is seeing increased adoption across the enterprise market segment
• How enterprise organizations are leveraging WordPress for faster time to market and more powerful digital experiences

We’ve really seen WordPress take off, specifically in the last three to four years, where the larger organizations are saying, ‘Oh, wow, this is secure, this is scalable. This is actually really nimble. And I can do so much more than I thought.’ So what’s been fun to see is watching the clients get that ‘aha’ moment and then being able to deliver on those solutions.

Anne Stefanyk, CEO, Kanopi Studios

Full text transcript

JOEL KNIGHT: Hi, Thank you for joining us here in the Agency Track for WP Engine Summit 2021. My name is Joel Knight. I’m the VP of Growth & Strategy at WP Engine. And I’m here with Anne Stefanyk from Kanopi Studios, and we’re here today to talk about enterprise-grade WordPress and what it means for brands and agencies. Anne, I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. I’m excited we’re doing this finally. Thank you for joining.

ANNE STEFANYK: Joel, Thanks for having me. Again, my name is Anne Stefanyk. I’m founder and CEO of Kanopi Studios, and we design, build, and support websites for clients who want to make a positive impact using open source like WordPress.

JOEL KNIGHT: Awesome. So, Anne, we’ve talked so much about this, this topic about enterprise and WordPress. There’s so much to unpack and I’m so glad we’re able to do this and share learnings and thoughts on this with all of the agencies that are live here with us today. Just as a reminder for everyone, we will be on the chat. So if you have questions as we’re talking through this, we invite you to join the conversation as well. It should be a lot of fun.

Maybe to start off and could you tell us a little bit about how you got started in WordPress and how that all began for you?

ANNE STEFANYK: Sure, I’d be happy to. So I opened our shop in 2010, and I did side projects off the side of my desk as a lot of folks probably as you started your own agency. And I originally, actually funny enough, opened as a Drupal shop. And it was one of the first inquiries I got, was actually “hi, can you build a WordPress website?” And I turned to my one developer at the time and said, “Do you do WordPress?” And he said, “I do.” So OK, we do WordPress.

So it was kind of a funny—It was just a bit of an accidental fumble into WordPress in 2010. And since then, we’ve seen WordPress grow so much that it’s been such a fun platform as we’ve grown as an agency. We’ve been able to build more complex and a lot of enterprise-grade WordPress sites. So yeah, it’s a fun beginning and a continous adventure.

JOEL KNIGHT: That was the right answer for your developer. I wonder if that was true at the moment, or if he quickly Googled that and said, “Sure, we can do that.”

ANNE STEFANYK: Fortunately, it was the truth. Fortunately, he’s still on the Wordp– he’s actually still on our team today and is one of our Senior Solution architects in WordPress.

JOEL KNIGHT: That’s fantastic. It’s funny. I’ve been at WP Engine for over seven years, and every year, we benchmark and index the rate of growth for WordPress and market share and it’s over 40% now. And so it’s just been crazy to see the growth that WordPress is experienced. And that creates interesting opportunities and also means a lot about how you have to grow and evolve as an organization in that space. I’d love to hear a little bit about what enterprise and WordPress has meant for you in terms of how Kanopi has had to grow and evolve and what it’s meant for you as a business leader for your organization.

ANNE STEFANYK: Yeah. I mean, I love the power of open source. And it’s been fun working with WordPress over the years because back in the day, people used to think WordPress is just a blogging engine. And over the years, not only have the technology options have increased, it’s actually always been much more than a blog, but people didn’t really understand the potential. So it’s been fun over the years working with clients to push the boundaries of what’s possible, and to take on that crawl, walk, run when it comes to WordPress. So we may start with our client relationship, where they just need a marketing site to be able to push out whatever messages they have,

and then as they become more sophisticated, then they’re more interested in how do we take this into, you know, different applications using more of a headless architecture, or are we going to go more omnichannel and try to reach out to different facets of the internet. And really, WordPress becomes that powerful engine behind all of those different opportunities.

So we’ve really seen it take off, specifically in the last three to four years, where the larger organizations are saying, “Oh, wow, this is secure, this is scalable. This is actually really nimble. And I can do so much more than I thought.” So that’s been fun to see is watching the clients get that aha moment and then being able to deliver on those solutions.

JOEL KNIGHT: Absolutely. I know it’s been an interesting journey for us. I mean, WP Engine, we have our SOC 2 Type 2 certification. There’s things like that we’ve had to do as an organization to grow and mature and help deliver that confidence for our customers and partners. So maybe talk a little bit about that in terms of for your agency, what have you seen behind the scenes in terms of how that’s help sort of stretched you, or how Kanopi itself has had to change to grow into the enterprise space?

ANNE STEFANYK: For sure. enterprise clients have a whole different set of requirements than just your normal small to medium-sized business. And what we found is as we started gaining more enterprise clients, and we’re up against the other big CMSes during our CMS compete, we actually had to level up some of our internal infrastructure pieces to facilitate more enterprise clients.

For example, when we were a lot younger, it was like OK, get laptops for everybody. Get them going. Get them working. We had to roll out a full security infrastructure to make sure that we had the ability to do remote access and to be able to actually have a deeper level of security control over our laptops. Another thing is that we wanted to always work with great hosting providers, and that’s one of the benefits we love of working with WP Engine is that enterprise requires global data centers, different types of certifications.

And for us, we have a very robust support department. In order to support enterprise clients, we really need to have our hosting partner be able to offer that service level agreement so they can provide emergency and after-hours support because we don’t want to wear pagers at the end. We’re definitely more focused on the services side.

JOEL KNIGHT: Right.

ANNE STEFANYK: Yeah, so a lot of it came from infrastructure. It also came in terms of us having more redundancy. When I was a 20 person shop, we’re now almost 60, it was a little harder to provide that type of support.

So we’ve had to provide different levels of– they require different levels of reporting. They have different quarterly reviews that we have to do– lots more documentation. So just getting those infrastructure places in– getting those pieces in place, so that when we do bring on the next enterprise client, they may have unique needs. But we had some of that baseline stuff already set up.

JOEL KNIGHT: Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, as I hear you talk about that, I mean, it really resonates for me how we’ve been talking a lot about the WordPress Economy and just the growth of WordPress in general. And I was thinking about what you were saying earlier around this awakening that you’re starting to see some of your enterprise customers have of “Oh. This is a– there’s a thing here. Like this is credible.” And it feels like there is that FUD or Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt around there sometimes about WordPress.

And we’ve talked a little bit about that in terms of different ways we look at that. I know you mentioned you have a little counterpunch you like to use whenever you hear that objection in terms of the Department of Defense article that you like to share. But maybe could you talk a little bit about how you overcome some of those objections or help deliver confidence to your customers in terms of what WordPress can do at the enterprise level.

ANNE STEFANYK: For sure. Often we see brands that will come to us or different entities, and they’ll be, “Oh, we need to build this complex enterprise-grade WordPress or website. Which technology do you recommend?” And, of course, that we’re open source, we’re very much pro WordPress, and, of course, there’s some Drupal in there. But we’re honestly having the conversation with those, whether it’s a CMO or the marketing team, about what is the real differences between proprietary and open source.

And what I find so interesting is it’s the same conversation we’ve been having for years. And both camps are like security, performance. And I really feel like if you think of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, when it comes to enterprise CMSes, even though the open source camp is saying, “We’re secure, and we’re scalable,” the proprietary camp is also saying that. In the sweetest way, it’s like they’re both secure. They’re both great platforms.

And where we start having some of those deeper CMS complete conversations is around really understanding that if you can build a website that’s super scalable and flexible, A) you could have your website around for a lot longer. It’s long gone those three-year life cycles of a website. You can make your website last for 10 years if you skillfully take care of it. And so really helping clients understand the total cost of ownership and the longevity of the open source platform, but also the agility and the speed to market.

And I think that’s where open source starts to really shine is that when you have a new feature request, or when you want to do something different, getting to market is a lot quicker. And plus, we have that whole community of plug-ins. So often when you’re thinking like, “Oh, maybe it would be cool if it could integrate with this.” You go to the open source world, and often there’s a plug-in that can support that. So it allows that real speed to market.

JOEL KNIGHT: That’s so true. I mean, that’s something we see a lot as well, just to plus one that. I think it’s so interesting how the market share of WordPress, we talked about that earlier, being at the 40% level in terms of the top, the largest sites on the internet, and how much market share WordPress has for that. It’s just the runaway standard from a content management perspective.

That almost creates this virtuous cycle where there’s so much– there’s such a proliferation of MarTech technologies and tools. And WordPress is such a huge target in terms of where you would want to integrate first. Just about everything has a WordPress plugin. And we’ve found that to be a real advantage for WordPress in the enterprise in terms of its built-in interoperability with the rest of the MarTech ecosystem because you have to because of the market share.

It’s a compelling driver. So that makes it really interesting for enterprises that are trying to build things and integrate things together because it’s the website, but it’s also your whole ecosystem of your digital experiences. And there’s lots of things to connect and integrate. And so that’s been– we’ve definitely seen that as well as a key benefit of the selling of WordPress and enterprise. That’s definitely true.

I love that you mentioned Maslow’s hierarchy. I was hoping Maslow’s hierarchy was going to come out luckily. It’s always a fun visual. And it really does seem like there’s that credibility you have to have at the base of the pyramid just to– food, water, shelter, infrastructure security, all those things. But I love the idea that when we talked about this earlier about creative agility and time to market, and I know you like to talk about the speed of retail, all of these things that are really–

We can talk about the base of Maslow’s hierarchy, and the pyramid, and all those needs if you want. We can check all those boxes. We can have that conversation. We can instill confidence there. But don’t you want to talk about the top of the pyramid?

Let’s talk about self-actualization and how we get to drive really interesting experiences. So that agility does seem to really be a driver for clients in terms of what they’re able to do with WordPress or open source in general and helping get to market faster. So I’d love for you to be able to share a little bit more about, for the other agencies listening, how you’ve been able to use that in your pitch and your messaging to clients and prospects, and what some examples you’ve seen of that agility bearing fruit and people saying, “Oh, this is real, I get it now.”

ANNE STEFANYK: Yeah. And I love that because it’s almost like, in the sweetest way, the client doesn’t know what they don’t know yet. So they come in with all these basic questions about security and performance. And again, the Department of Defense has a lovely article on the FAQ of open source. And I always say if the feds trust open source, you got to trust open source. Let’s not talk about security again. And get that off the table.

I do know that in the last three to four years, that the buyer has changed for enterprise projects. Before, it was the CTO that was buying these web projects, and the marketer was the influencer. It’s very much switched where the marketer is now the main purchaser, and IT has more of a stake to make sure that they’re not buying anything that does not fit their needs. But what we do see is that before, we used to very much sell on the features of that base level. Like yes, it’s secure. Yes, it’s performant. Yes, it has the ability to scale and be a global platform and offer multilingual.

Now, when we’re actually talking to the marketers, we’re helping them understand the power, the potential, of WordPress. Because a lot of them come in and say, I just need a website. I’m so unhappy with ours. It’s not converting leads. I’m having a problem with our SEO. And it’s like once we can help them understand that once you get a really good solid base, you can then do that kind of crawl, walk, run. And that’s where it’s really exciting when you can future state with the marketer about the potential for omnichannel.

The potential for leveraging WordPress for the Internet of Things and spreading your message out through multiple platforms, all with a really basic, simple, easy-to-use content management system so anybody can go in there and enter content, and it can have this full digital experience attached with it. So a lot of the time, I find that when we’re selling enterprise, we’re almost like future stating and showing the potential of what’s possible, knowing we want to get to that crawl, walk, run.

Because I would say, the day you launched your website is actually the first day of your project. All that expensive work we’re going to do together is a very fancy plan. But in the end, rubber hits the road when we launch, when we go live. And that’s where I see so many folks that had come from, “I don’t know if WordPress is the thing.” We build their site. We launch their site. And they’re like, wow, can it also do this?

What about this? What if we tried that? Oh, we want to build an app. Can we feed all the information right from the WordPress site? We’re going to have all this cool out-of-home stuff. Could we get content there? So it’s really interesting to watch them. Their eyes get wider and wider once they really realize the potential.

Because unfortunately, some of the proprietary systems have a really healthy budget to go out there and say, hey, WordPress isn’t secure. Or hey, it’s not scalable. But again, they’re just hitting that bottom stuff, and they really need to really focus on that what’s possible. And that’s where we love working with open source because it gives us that agility and flexibility.

JOEL KNIGHT: It’s so true. And it’s funny with the– I mean, for WordPress to be at a place where the WordPress economy is a $600 billion economy, there’s a certain level of we got to just set this aside. We’ve got to stop talking about this–

ANNE STEFANYK: Totally.

JOEL KNIGHT: –this fear, uncertainty. I mean, clearly, from a market share and just the total dollars for companies like the WP Engine and Kanopi Studios, there are entire businesses thriving, and growing, serving enterprise needs–with WordPress and other stuff.

It really struck me listening to you talk about that. The beginning of your project is when the website goes live. That really feels true like that rings true to how people talk about their sites when they’re building on something that lets you be that nimble and agile like WordPress. But I know there’s that other world sometimes, and you talk about some of the more proprietary content management systems.

You have these large, maybe not monolithic, but these really large IT investment footprints, and if you’re a marketer and you have a project you’re trying to get live, you can go to your IT PMO organization, and they can tell you OK, well, we have a six-month roadmap that’s already locked, and we’ll talk about that after that. It does have this waterfall project feeling of from the website goes live that’s final because it was this huge project and this huge software release that happened versus it being evergreen, and playful, and something you can prototype with and create content and really get to market quickly.

And we see that echoed sometimes in how we come to relationships with some of our customers where it’s not an either/or. It’s an and/both, where they may have a certain solution that they use in some ways, but WordPress becomes the emergency time to market lever they pull sometimes when they need to get something out quickly. And that winds up being the best way to do it.

So I’d love to know if you’ve seen that in your business if you have that kind of experience with your customers where they’re learning about WordPress for the first time, maybe for one project, and then that project grows in terms of their awareness of capabilities or what it can do or what else it could serve.

ANNE STEFANYK: For sure. It’s interesting. Sometimes, we’ll have a client that’s actually on a proprietary system, and they’ve been told, “Oh, this is going to be a $2 million rebuild,” because they want to re-skin the site. They want to make it look different. Just from look and feel, like oh, it’s a $2 million rebuild. You have to start from scratch. And they’re like, “Oh, my goodness. Maybe we can go and look at– that’s where I have these enterprise clients that come and say, oh, well, I heard WordPress is cheaper. Can you help me understand that?”

And I’m like, OK, well, let’s actually talk about value that it creates. And we talk about yes, you’re going to need to do some type of spend to re-platform, whether it is on your current proprietary system or it is open source. But once you get onto that, then you have the agility to be able to next time you want to do a re-skin, it is just simply re-imagining the front end. And I think one of the big ahas we have from clients that if they have just started to– they may have like, oh, our blogs run on WordPress. Can it really do all these things?

Then we go into case studies. And we showcase other clients that have really leveraged WordPress in such a way that allowed them to scale their business successfully. And that is maybe– there’s a site that has multiple chapter sites. And we’ve got 400 chapters. So all those content editors can log in, and there’s no security risks, and showing them different models of the ability for how WordPress can scale on different facets.

So there’s one client that comes in with that proprietary mindset that’s like, OK, is this going to be so expensive? Or what does this look like? Or I just have a blog. The other side of folks that come in, they have something that’s broken in WordPress because they’ve had maybe a bad experience. And they come, and they say, I don’t know if WordPress is going to work.

And one of the biggest aha moments we have with those clients is like, well, let’s look under the hood, and let’s just see. Because more often than not, somebody has maybe put in maybe a contributed theme that maybe is causing a bunch of performance errors, or maybe it’s a site builder tool that’s limited the marketer. And often, we can get in there and show, oh, if we just rip out this theme and actually build you a custom theme, you’re actually going to have some ground to run with, give you some ground to stand on to then work with. And often, those conversations, it’s a lot of fear, uncertainty, and doubt because they just don’t know the power of what’s possible.

So for us, we’re always explaining and showing, and more often, looking at different use cases of how we can demonstrate a deep integration with multiple different– we have one client, La Madeleine, which is shared client of ours. They have all of their point of sale and all their online ordering. That’s all done through a third party, but it looks and feels seamless because we’ve integrated it via the rest API with WordPress. So once you go to the site experience, the end-user doesn’t know what’s going on. They just want to have a seamless experience.

So we’re able to craft those pathways. And then give a place to grow from. I think that’s what’s excitable. A lot of the times, we’re kind of adopting enterprise clients into our pipeline of services. It’s first off like getting through that base level of let’s make sure the house is tidy. The doors are locked, everything’s organized.

Then let’s move on to re-imagining key priority pages. Then it’s probably working on conversion funnels and how can we actually move the needle for the organization. And then also we’ve got like, that’s just like base-level stuff. At that point, we then look into how can we have more seamless integrations. How can we syndicate content to different platforms if that’s what the goal is?

And then ultimately, layering in third-party platforms for personalization or journey mapping and really customizing that digital experience. All with that foundation of WordPress being such a core easy-to-use editing experience for any marketer or any person that’s in the site.

JOEL KNIGHT: I love that. And I think part of what makes it fun, just from my perspective working at WP Engine, I think, we love seeing and hearing those stories, and I think that’s why we love the relationships we have with all of our agency partners so much because we’re a part of that story. That whole creative ideation, all the different ways that you can create a vision to inspire your customers, ways that they’re already inspired but looking for ways to go faster, the partnership of that feels really strong where WP Engine has a role to play in that and other providers, obviously.

But we have a role to play in that. And we take a lot of pride in delivering on that promise on the base of that pyramid so that customers can keep their focus higher up the value chain, higher up to that self-actualization part of Maslow. It’s interesting because I think, as you talk about that, it’s sort of that’s the whole theme of the day you launched your project, or you launched your website is the first day of your project.

From an agency perspective, how do you think about– you want to be able to demonstrate ROI in growth for your customers. But maybe just for some of the folks listening in that there are also agencies that probably on a variety of the spectrum of deeply involved in WordPress projects today are not that much.

Maybe could you talk a little bit about how that has– we’ve talked about WordPress growing from an industry perspective, and our is growing from a business perspective or from an account growth perspective. How do you see that ROI and agility, like the first experience they have with that? How has that led to growth for you and for your business with customers when you’re able to stick the landing on that first project or that first site?

ANNE STEFANYK: Yeah. And in the sweetest way, it’s actually not about the tech. It’s about the business. So it’s looking at what does the organization need to achieve with the relaunch– and then starting there. And picking two or three key performance indicators to say, “OK, we want to 2X the number of conversions we have, or we want to increase the number of eyeballs on our page from $300,000 a month to $600,000 a month page views,” picking some data points that we can achieve skillfully.

Then we launch, we measure, and we personally at our agency, we work together with our clients on a quarterly basis to look at what they’re doing in the next quarter to the next year, and then make sure that the web strategy is really aligned. And that’s kind of fun because each quarter we try to take one goal and achieve it. And that, my friends, is how you create long-lasting clients is because you win, and then you win again, and then they go, this works. And what’s so fun is that when you can show them how you can take a dollar and turn it into three, all of a sudden, the website is no longer a cost center. It’s an investment.

And that’s where we really like to get. That a project may take six months to get up and running, and all the design, all the creative launched out the door, like to do them less but sometimes, the reality is with getting everything organized. But then, every three months, we’re looking at setting what is another goal we want to achieve, and then working together to achieve that goal.

And that’s the fun part is that once we get into a relationship and we’re three to four years in, we’ve hit a lot of those basics. Like, OK, we want to be on the first page of Google for this. Or, hey, we want to increase lead conversions here. Now we have a situation. We have too many leads. We need now to make sure that we have more qualified leads, and how can the website do a better job of warming up those leads before they get turned into a sales qualified leads for the sales folks to actually go after.

So, honestly, we find the ROI is starting to really look at the business and what it needs to achieve and then helping achieve on that on a quarterly basis. Because in the end, in the sweetest way, like nobody cares where you get electricity from. You just want to be able to turn on the light and get electricity. And if you don’t have electricity, you need somewhere to call. They can quickly and deliver a solution and make sure that you’re back online right away. But you don’t think about where the electricity comes.

And then, in the sweetest way, and that should be your website. It should just be like is it performing? Is it results-driven? Am I getting what I need out of it? No? OK, let’s work on that. Versus oh my goodness, my site’s falling over. Or I’m getting hit by spambots.

All that basic stuff should be taken care of. And I feel like with a good agency partner and a hosting partner, then you can really work on making sure that those conversations don’t happen here. Just the electricity is running. The lights are on. And you can just really focus on one of those business KPIs. That’s why we have a support department because we feel like that’s a special thing that when you build these large enterprise sites, it doesn’t just launch, and it’s done.

JOEL KNIGHT: Yeah. I mean–

ANNE STEFANYK: A lot more than that.

JOEL KNIGHT: It’s such– I mean, people care about the outcomes. They don’t care about the output. And so that outcome focus, I think, that’s– what’s really inspirational for me is this realization that, like you said, the technology is like it matters only in service to a goal or in service of some kind of impact or outcome. And the outcome really is like we talked about at the beginning. It’s like time to market, creative vision being unleashed, brands and agencies are those having the freedom to create and get things out there quickly.

It is like things are moving really quickly. You’ve got to be able to get to market fast. And so if you’re a solutions, technology, partnerships, whatever they can do. If they can help you get to market faster, then you’ll have the outcomes that you need to generate credibility and trust with your customers. And so I love that. I’m glad we came back to outcomes being the focus so. With a quick time check, just maybe one last question that I could get you to reflect on.

For the agencies that are joining us right now in the session that are maybe newer to WordPress and are in the enterprise space already, and are unsure how WordPress fits into that if you think back, and if you rewind the clock for your personal journey and Kanopi’s growth through that, what advice would you have or what coffee talk would you have in terms of another agency owner who just wasn’t sure?

ANNE STEFANYK: I think I got some really good advice as a young entrepreneur saying whatever you put in your Petri dish will grow. So just be mindful of what you take on. And I know that enterprise clients they force you to change some of your processes a little bit. So I would just recommend take one on at a time. Serve them really well. Get a great reference.

Understand some of the new infrastructure pieces you have to put in. We have a lot higher levels of insurance. We have different account management roles to service these folks. Take one on at a time. And I think that’s the skillful maneuver is just really being mindful that if you are really focused on health care clients, for example, and then all of a sudden you get a corporate enterprise opportunity, it may be very lucrative in terms of dollars, but it may have totally different implications on how to actually service and deliver a corporate client versus a health care client. Yes, they both need conversions.

But they have different needs, whether it’s HIPAA for health care or different, or they’re really into whatever they are on that corporate site. The point is that I would, at least for your first enterprise opportunities, really swim in the lane that you’re comfortable in so that you can deliver those high services. Because an enterprise client is much more like a whale in your lake– is that you can have this big client show up and essentially push on resources, push on management, and essentially take a lot of time. So you really want to be ready for that.

I made the mistake early on of taking on two or three enterprise clients at the same time. And I staffed them all with five dedicated people there, five dedicated people. Well, it happened to be that one of those with Autodesk, and Autodesk we’re doing Autodesk education, and Autodesk global came and said great work. We’ll take over. And all of a sudden, I had five people that didn’t work. In 30 days, I was like, oh, my goodness, I have five people. The next month, I had the next enterprise client saying, hey, we’re going to actually go in a different direction. We’re being sold. So we’re going to have this–

Boom, I had 10 people on the bench within 30 days. And I was like, OK. So just knowing how to cross-train your folks to make sure that your folks are on multiple different projects, so there’s not just one big one leads, and you’re left with a big hole. And also, out of that, trying to build some repeatable processes so that the next enterprise client we have, we can help with a better flow of people, so it wasn’t just dedicated.

So now we have cycles that go in and out of these enterprise clients. Because also, your developers and your designers, they will sometimes get burned out on enterprise clients because it’s big. It’s the same thing over and over. We’ve learned over the years that we actually have to cycle our developers and designers in and out of enterprise projects to make sure they stay happy.

JOEL KNIGHT: That’s wonderful. That’s wonderful insight. Anne, I have loved this conversation so much. Thank you for sharing your insights and your experience with us today. And for everyone that joined us, thank you so much for listening. Again, I hope you’ve enjoyed the session. Anne, thank you so much for being here and being part of Summit.

ANNE STEFANYK: Thank you.